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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Permalink JBL cabinet design

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I'm double posting this from offsetguitars, hoping we have some cabinet experts up in the house.

I have a Fender Bassman 50 cabinet with 2 D130s in it and also an unmarked 1x15 cabinet with a K130. I just ran a back to back recording test using the same amp and a looper pedal playing the same thing through each cab. I was shocked by the difference in tone between these two cabinets.

I knew the Bassman 50 was kind of mid-heavy but I wasn't prepared for how utterly shitty it sounds compared to the K130 cab. Now I'm wondering if my reconed D130s are just old and have lost a bunch of treble and volume. In addition to sounding muddy compared to the K130, the D130 track had to be boosted about 6 dB to reach the same level.

image

My main question, though, is can cabinet design affect the sound this drastically? The K130 cabinet is very well proportioned, according to JBL's cabinet design PDF. It's 5.9 cubic feet with a 35 square inch port.

The Bassman 50, on the other hand, is only 4.6 cubic feet and has no port. And is housing TWO speakers. I know it can be replaced with something else and they'll sound better but I can't help but doubt they're going to end up sounding as good as the K130.

The main bummer is that the Bassman 50 is what I play my Gomez Surfer through and I've been kind of overwhelmed by the sudden jump in mids with the brownface. I play a Traynor YBA-1A through the K130 cabinet and I hate to say it but often I like the way it sounds better than the brownface. But now I know the cabinets are a huge factor. But the K130 is a 16 ohm so the Surfer will never get to play through it.

Should I ditch the Bassman 50 cabinet and put the D130s in something more appropriately designed? And if so, are you supposed to double the cabinet internal volume when you add a second speaker? JBL says 4 cubic feet for a D130. Does that mean 8 cubic feet for a 2x setup?

Here's the clip. K130 then D130, alternating. Sound samples straight from the mic with no processing.

Last edited: Jan 17, 2019 05:24:23

Redfeather, I assume that your 2x15 cabinet is either the larger vertical oriented one or the later shorter one with staggered speakers. The fact is that pretty much any more modern bass cabinet is worlds better for bass use. Also, JBL D-130's are more suitable for guitar than bass, D-140's with the ribbed cone were pretty much "the" bass speakers from the 1960's into the early '70's.

Speaker and cabinet technology has come a LONG way in recent years. I am no expert on the whys and wherefores but I do understand that proper cabinet volume and porting can make what appears to be a physically small cabinet sound HUGE. One current example is Mesa's recent Subway line of smallish but relatively lightweight cabinets that sound freaking amazing.

Years ago when I was the X-Rays' bassist, our esteemed band leader (known here on SG101 as Eddie Katcher) converted an old 1970's Peavey cabinet I had into a lookalike Fender cosmetically. It was a bit larger than the Showman 2x15 horizontal cab I was using but the Peavey was physically deeper (15") so it contained more interior volume and a center slot port. The difference sound-wise was significant. Both the Showman and the Fender-ized Peavey used the identical Electro-Voice 15BX bass speakers. IMO Those speakers are FAR superior to JBL D-series ones but sadly they have been out of production for some time. Eminence is now the big dog in bass speakers. They are really good and are priced reasonably.

I believe that the main problem with the old Fender bass cabinets was their insufficent depth of 11.5" or thereabouts and lack of proper porting. Again, old technology. Surf bands back then were generally not as loud as they are today. The bass player in the first surf band I was in in the mid-'60's had a new blackface 50W 2x12 Bassman and it would barely keep up with the two guitars and drums, none of which were mic'd.

In today's world, a 50 watt Bassman is just not a very loud amp for onstage bass use but with the right cabinet/speaker combination it can be sufficient without FOH support in a medium-size venue.

But a JBL D-120 or 130F-equipped Bassman is a KILLER guitar rig pretty much anywhere!

Jack
aka WoodyJ

The Mariners (1964-68, 1996-2005)
The Hula Hounds (1996-current)
The X-Rays (1997-2004)
The Surge! (2004, 2011-2012)
Various non-surf bands that actually made money
(1978-1990)

That's why I'm into Guitar amp modeling with rack units like the Rack Eleven and with all the cab and Amp choices sound wise. Along with all the effects like Delay and Tank Reverb (studio sound). I beat this thing to death everyday and it never lets me down. You can plug right into a 1000 watt Powered PA with 15 inch speakers. I think that's the future of live performance (its like old line phones verse I-Phones). You can plug a 60 year old guitar in this stuff and never sounded better to my ear.

With this technology unless you play live or in a band you don't need amps and Cabs to get the same sound

Gary Hoey used this for small events for a while and played Pipeline through this thing and I was sold. I use it more for practice with a CD/USB player and a rack mixer in a rack travel cabinet - really works great- I play with head phones on so I can play anytime I want

Its like surf boards you wouldn't use a old 1960's long board instead of a modern Fiberglass one made last year. Embrace the technology Surfers. Yes

To be clear, I'm not using either of these cabinets for bass. The Bassman 50 cab is indeed the shorter one with the diagonally oriented speakers.

I use virtual instruments regularly as well and they definitely are handy and fun! I just want to get my real world gear dialed in and sounding its best too.

Last edited: Jan 17, 2019 13:17:52

I meant to add that most classic surf song recordings are part Microphone and Amp (plus all the settings on guitar - amp - mixer etc) You will never get that sound live without modeling. You will get a sound but not with just speakers (The amp and tubes ) have a lot to do with all that as well. To many variables (Even air temperature effects the sound.

-

Last edited: Feb 02, 2024 14:27:50

SJ101, Apologies, but I have to respectfully disagree. Plus, I was discussing bass cabinet technology, not the benefits of effects modeling.

In my world, on stage there is no substitute for a good pedalboard into serious, powerful tube-driven bass (or guitar) rig. You can have all the in ear monitors and modeling stuff that you like, I prefer the aural experience of a tube amp powering a pair of E-V 15's blasting away. In the studio is another matter, however. I have no problem with direct recording when the situation merits but I use actual effects pedals, not modeling.

Different strokes for different folks......What works for you may or may not work for everyone, especially the Traditionalists here on SG101, of which there are many.

By the way, I have a fairly new VOX modeling amp that has a tube preamp and onboard Korg effects, that I sometimes use for guitar practicing and also a Line 6 POD HD500X for silent practicing when my very tolerant wife is nearby.

But as good as both are, in my home studio neither are even in the same solar system aurally as a 1962 brownface Pro or the 1965 Deluxe Reverb + Fender Reverb unit + a well-equipped pedalboard......at least to my ears.

As they say, YMMV Smile

Jack
aka WoodyJ

The Mariners (1964-68, 1996-2005)
The Hula Hounds (1996-current)
The X-Rays (1997-2004)
The Surge! (2004, 2011-2012)
Various non-surf bands that actually made money
(1978-1990)

Surfer_Joe_1961 wrote:
Embrace the technology Surfers.

You can’t make me, ever, do this.

Daniel Deathtide

Last edited: Jan 17, 2019 13:55:57

Redfeather, I think your D130F's are the problem. The original Fender Showman cabinet with the tone ring was 36x24x11.5". Thats 4.7 cubic feet. A dimension based on hi fi principles and the use of the tone ring baffle. But when it came time to make the 2x15", they jammed another speaker with a divider in the same size box. And it didn't loose anything.

Ran (kick-the-reverb) runs single D130F's in a smaller cabinet (around 3.2 cu/ft) at the SG101 convention show, and they kill it.

Your K130 cabinet must be huge. I don't think a port is necessarily a good thing on a guitar cabinet.

So, in short, I think its speakers, not cabinets.

You should swap speakers around, and even run the 2 15's single and see whats the difference.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

Update:

I have verified that one of my D130s is very subpar. The one I was mic'ing in the Bassman 50 cabinet--the bottom track in the image in my original post--is much quieter than its companion D130.

I recorded the "good" one both connected to the other at 4 ohms and disconnected at 8 ohms and found that its output jumped considerably when it was wired solo. I don't know how much of this has to do with the actual electronics and how much has to do with the fact that its airspace effectively doubled (as I understand it, anyway.) Tonewise, there wasn't really much of a change. Also, I should note that I was using my Carvin X100B with a 4-8-16 ohm selector and adjusted that accordingly for all these tests.

And the good D130 still doesn't sound nearly as good as the K130! The symptom both D's exhibit is a marked lack of highs. Is this what a degraded magnet causes?

Do you know who did the re-cone on the d130f’s? Are they wired properly? JBL wiring colors are usually backwards from most other speakers, but some guys “fix” it when they re-cone them. That might be why you get less output when they are wired together. You can check to see which is the positive terminal with a battery.

What do the cones look like? Smooth, or ribbed? They could be d140 cones, which are ribbed, and heavier, and usually have a less treble-y tone because they are made for bass.

I don’t know what the symptoms of a de-magnetized magnet are, but maybe? Hopefully, someone else will chime in.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

Okay so this is disturbing. (That the D130f could produce anything less than pure beauty.)

I recently got an old pair that were blown. I’ve sent them to Upland Speaker Services, who has an expensive “full service” that cleans and recharges, and he also does the all-paper cone like the orignals, or he offers a K130 half-paper (or something) cone. It’s $325 per speaker, and I’m happy to pay during this phase of my life. The “full service” treatment, the nice fellow said, would be basically taking home a brand new speaker. He added that every voice coil or whatever that he’s taken in, all had particles that needed cleaning.

Daniel Deathtide

Sonichris, I had them both reconed at the same place. One of them--the "bad" one--is actually not a D130 but a 130F-2, which my brief research at the time suggested would be just like a D130 after a recone. Incidentally, I did that research right here and you were the one who posted that info!

Update:

The kits my recones were done with are Waldom, which has a bad reputation across the web. Apparently they use round wire instead of edge wound. I reckon this is part of the issue I'm experiencing. I might look into redoing them myself. If you want something done right...

It's really a shame that the quintessential "surf sound" is achieved with old-ass out-of-production gear.

Redfeather wrote:

Update:

The kits my recones were done with are Waldom, which has a bad reputation across the web. Apparently they use round wire instead of edge wound. I reckon this is part of the issue I'm experiencing. I might look into redoing them myself. If you want something done right...

It's really a shame that the quintessential "surf sound" is achieved with old-ass out-of-production gear.

I reconed a K130 myself. It's in my Showman cab now & the original D130F now sits on a shelf waiting for a recone. The K130 sounds amazing & I see no reason to remove it. I used the Simply Speakers recone kit. It wasn't very hard to do, just tedious. I'm in no hurry to do another though. Give it a shot, you might be surprised with the results.

Otto & The Ottomans
Kennedy Custom Guitars

Update:

I've dragged home a pair of JBLs to build into my new main rig cabinet. It's a D130F and a D140F (and the D140F even has the Fender "F" logo on it) that were reconed with 2225H cones in 1989 and have been on the shelf since then.

As they sit now, they are not very suitable for guitar but I do believe I am going to recone them myself. I'm currently waiting on a pair of gaskets so that I can front mount them and then I'll give them a listen before proceeding.

Last edited: Jan 22, 2019 18:06:27

Update:

Today I bought a pair of PA E130s to put in the larger cabinet I got to replace my Bassman 50 cabinet that I suspect was giving me a sound I didn't like. The larger one is 6.6 CF internal and has a 28 sq in. port.

Well, I pulled the E130s out of their PA enclosures and discovered that they're actually D130Fs that were reconed with E130 paper. So that was awesome. I immediately loaded them into the bigger cabinet and I'm happy to say that the sound is fantastic. Since it's new speakers AND a new cabinet, I can't say for sure what the main difference over the old cabinet is but it just sounds so much better. Not all midrangey like before--it's really punchy and crisp and my Gomez Surfer now has the voice it deserves. I love it!

So the lesson to anyone who read through all this: those old shallow 2x15 cabinets may not be doing you any favors.

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