murph
Joined: Dec 16, 2010
Posts: 332
Chapel Hill, NC
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Posted on Aug 17 2018 11:52 AM
I've really enjoyed this thread and it's questionable whether I have anything meaningful to add. But that's never stopped me before.
I have a Johnny Marr Jag. Absolutely. Love. This. Guitar. It was my first Fender, first offset, and first guitar I ever truly bonded with. A bandmate had one, so I was able to "try before buying" and fell in love it. Got a great deal on a used one and needed very little in the way of set-up. I've been playing Pyramid Flat 12s almost since day one. It sounds great for surf and spaghetti westerns. I don't know how vintage/authentic the bare-knuckle pickups sound, but combined with the pup selection and switch options, there's a lot of tone options to work with.
That said, I still wanted a little more variety for demos I was recording. I got it in my head that I "needed" a Jazzmaster. I was on a somewhat tight budget but ended up spending a little more to get a Troy Van Leeuwen model. I'm not a fanboy or anything like that, but it just seemed like a lot of guitar for the money. The pickups it came with also got solid reviews. I also thought the oxblood finish was striking, and since it was a poly finish, I knew it would be a little more robust than the Jagmarr's nitro finish. (It's supposedly a bad idea to leave them in guitar stands for extended periods, leaving a leather strap on, or laying around on a leather couch/chair... and that is EXACTLY where the TVL JM spends most of it's time when I'm not playing it).
So, the first time I plugged the TVL JM in and started playing it, I was immediately floored by just how damn surfy the thing sounded. I was running through the same amp and outboard reverb unit I'd been playing the Jag through, and it just had "that tone" the Jaguar didn't have. I should mention that I am running Pyramid 11 flats on the TVL JM.
The fit/finish and playability of the Jagmarr is a notch above the TVL JM, but they are two very distinct tones, with each guitar capable of achieving a sub-range of tones (especially the Jagmarr). But to my ears anyway, they sound very different.
So, I guess the upshot/point of my post is that if you are considering the Johnny Marr Jag (which is a brilliant guitar), I'm not sure it will get you close to the Jazzmaster tone you are looking for. Best of luck and keep us posted!
-murph
— http://www.reverbnation.com/elmiragesurf
http://www.reverbnation.com/aminorconspiracy
"I knew I was in trouble when the Coco-Loco tasted like water!" -- morphball
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TheFintastics
Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 459
Wichita Falls, Texas
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Posted on Aug 17 2018 12:29 PM
Murph, you about nailed it on the head for me. Glad that you chimed in. I know EXACTLY what surf tone you're referring to when speaking of the Jazzmaster. Most of the bands at this year's SG101 had a JM and that sweet, sweet surf tone with both pickups activated to along with it.
I had offered to buy Lorenzo's JM after his set...and I was willing to pay a set amount but he wouldn't hear of it haha..I may have had a few too many German beers in me, but his tone was descended from the surf gods themselves.
I've been reading on the Marrs Jags and it seems they are held in high regard. So I may go that route. As another poster stated before, simply putting a set of JM pickups inside a Jaguar doesn't mean you'll get the same tones. Different size neck...different body shape...different weight on the decals lol.
Only thing is, I have always preferred a maple fingerboard over rosewood. So that will be a challenge.
— _
Hi, I'm Gellert, guitarist for The Fintastics.
https://www.facebook.com/TheFintastics
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murph
Joined: Dec 16, 2010
Posts: 332
Chapel Hill, NC
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Posted on Aug 17 2018 12:45 PM
Awesome! I believe that the break angle of the strings at the bridge is also a significant contributor to the JM's tone. So, yet another detail that may be working against your quest.
FWIW, Fender's American Professional Jaguar is available in two finishes that come with a maple neck. I have no idea what the Michael Frank pickups sound like. Looks to be about the same ballpark price-wise for a Johnny Marr Jag (which apparently is also now available in Lake Placid Blue).
-murph
— http://www.reverbnation.com/elmiragesurf
http://www.reverbnation.com/aminorconspiracy
"I knew I was in trouble when the Coco-Loco tasted like water!" -- morphball
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websurfer
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 1746
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Posted on Aug 17 2018 01:43 PM
I don't think any Jag modeled on the original model will sound just like a Jazzmaster. I have an interview with Leo and he explains the difference in the pickups he was aiming for. The Jazzmaster pickup is wound around a wider area or magnetic field, and the Jag pickup was narrowed to concentrate that field into a smaller area and along with the claw was intended to create a more focused attack (paraphrasing---I could look it up later).
When I briefly owned both models, (flatwounds on both)I didn't hear a real significant difference in sound unless it was a head to head comparison if that makes sense. In that case the difference was more pronounced. Listen to some George Tomsco and then listen to Bustin Surfboards by the Tornadoes. Any classic style Jazzmaster with flats will sound just like Tomsco, and Bustin' Surfboards (unless I'm wrong!)is classic Jag. Or if not, anything by the Lively Ones for sure.
Anyway, this is all general observation for whoever--you get this I'm sure. What I'm trying to say is that I think that for the most part the tone is baked in with these two models in a way perhaps unique in the Fender Universe.
BUT, to my ears, if you use rounds a lot of this goes out the window. Eddie Bertrand hated flats and his sound is not the "classic surf on flats sound", much more versatile sound I think. Ditto Dave Wronsky who is a soundsmith extraordinaire and has a more complex signal chain, but I believe it starts with the strings.
I believe Marr designed his guitar with specific string gauges roundwounds)in mind to get the most out of his model. Then you also have to take into account that it uses custom designed Bare Knuckle pickups and unique switching.
But the common wisdom around here is that any single coil Fender though a reverb tank will get a surf sound.
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websurfer
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 1746
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Posted on Aug 17 2018 02:00 PM
FWIW, listing to the Astronauts, I think there is a reason they turned the usual "Jazzmaster for rhythm, Jaguar for lead" paradigm on its head. It's because they discovered that in actual practice the more focused, punchier sound of the Jag hit the reverb tank harder, and thus they used the Jags to get their monumental drip and the Jazzmaster for the lead (my own theory).
Re the scale length, I found the Jag fret spacing noticeably more crowded for bar chords in the higher register. Not a deal breaker though.
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OaklandA
Joined: Nov 01, 2017
Posts: 83
Arizona
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Posted on Aug 17 2018 02:34 PM
@sonichris - sorry, we'll just have to disagree about the terms "not that much" and "virtually the same".
Differences in nut width, string gauge, string height(action), fingerboard radius, neck thickness can all be dismissed as "not that much" or "virtually the same" by showing the difference on a ruler. Yet strangely, most players notice a pretty distinct difference in feel and play-ability.
I don't need to go to GC to try the models discussed...I own them and can attest that the difference is not an opinion that can be dismissed as splitting hairs over minute measurements.
It seems important to you to be viewed as an expert. So be it. In this case I'd say you're mistaken. My non-expert opinion, fwiw (admittedly not much).
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Sonichris
Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 1872
Wear gloves - I'm in the Rockies
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Posted on Aug 17 2018 04:40 PM
I did get pretty wound up about it last night, didn’t I  Sorry.
To me, there just isn’t a night and day difference between the two. I understand preference, and most of this falls under that. I still don’t believe that anyone can hardly play a JM, but a Jaguar is the magic bullet. You can either play guitar, or you can’t. The rest falls under preference.
I’ve seen this argument go the other way, where guys say they cant play a Jaguar in the higher registers, because the frets are ”too close”. Really? I think it’s just an excuse for poor playing, and gear lust, and never being satisfied.
I’m no expert, but I can say I’ve gained a ton of insight in the last couple of years building guitars for some very finicky guitar players. Most think they know their stuff, but most just repeat what they have read online, or heard others say. I used to be the most vintage correct/picky guy around, but after watching the truly remarkable guys play anything and everything, even if it doesnt match their ideal preference, I’ve changed my thoughts, and subscribe to the “It’s a guitar, I can play it” school of thought. Things I thought I knew turned out to be false. Things that I thought made a difference didn't.
Ive seen guys with hands like Chewbacca play shredding solos above the 12th fret on a 24.75” scale, and I’ve seen schools of Japanese schoolchildren killing it on 2” wide flat classical fingerboards. I think we can work with a tenth of an inch.
Here’s story that kinda goes along - I built this double neck a couple years ago. The lower neck is a 24.75” scale, the upper is a 17” scale, tuned an octave higher. Both necks share the identical nut width, radius, back contour, and frets. But the little neck feels tiny at the nut, and the strings seem really close together at the bridge, even though both bridges are the same spacing. Why? I think its visual. So what do you do? Either resign yourself to the “unplayable” octave neck, or know that the necks are the same, and the bridges are the same, and practice for a few minutes and figure out how to play the darn thing. And in a few minutes, its not a big deal anymore.
Those are Fender '65 reissue pickups in it, and it' doesn't sound exactly like a jag either. But it's close.
— "You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"
Last edited: Aug 17, 2018 16:56:29
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ldk
Joined: Nov 08, 2017
Posts: 356
San Francisco Bay Area
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Posted on Aug 18 2018 02:45 PM
I took my Squier JM, tuned it a half-tone lower and put a capo on the first fret. I recorded this vs. the unaltered JM. I’m no good at describing differences in tone, but there was a clear difference, though both sounded good. Try this with your JM, and you’ll probably see how close you can get to a JM tone with a 24” neck.
— If I'd stop buying old guitars to fix, I might actually learn to play.
Bringing instruments back to life since 2013.
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TheFintastics
Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 459
Wichita Falls, Texas
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Posted on Aug 18 2018 09:20 PM
IDK, that's pretty ingenious! I am guessing the tonal difference comes from
- shortening the overall string length
- the capo'd first fret isn't producing the same sustain as a non-capo'd guitar nut.
— _
Hi, I'm Gellert, guitarist for The Fintastics.
https://www.facebook.com/TheFintastics
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Stoopy
Joined: Dec 27, 2012
Posts: 110
Ex SoCal -> Gainesville VA
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Posted on Aug 19 2018 01:25 PM
^^ Before today I never realized that I NEEDED a Shark Capo! 
— Member in good standing, Mentone Beach Syncopation Reverberation Association
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TheFintastics
Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 459
Wichita Falls, Texas
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Posted on Aug 20 2018 09:59 AM
I want to thank everyone for their help answering my question on here. Having never played a 24" scale neck before...and without one anywhere in my town to test drive, I decided to hold off on buying a Jag.
So, I bit the bullet and purchased my first Jazzmaster instead. With a 7.5" radius and flatwound 12s installed, I will be forcing myself to play as they did back in 1962.
Looking forward to it!
— _
Hi, I'm Gellert, guitarist for The Fintastics.
https://www.facebook.com/TheFintastics
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