Well i got a Problem in writing a song.

I wrote a cool Meldoie or PArt of a surf song. It sounds like Point Breake from the Bambies. The Problem is that i don't have ideas for a second part. Can somebody give me an advice?
cheers

Band: http://www.myspace.com/theterrortones

Last edited: Dec 22, 2008 12:12:29

Felix
Well i got a Problem in writing song.

I wrote a cool Meldoie or PArt of a surf song. It sounds like Point Breake from the Bambies. The Problem is that i don't have ideas for the second part. Can somebody give me an advice?
cheers

Well ... there are things you can do to get you going. Places to look for the next bit. It may sound a little calculated rather than inspired - but somebody once said that songwriting is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.

Say your melody is in a minor key, like many Surf melodies are, then you could look to changing to the relative major key for a bridge or chorus. For example if you are in A minor then look at C major. See if that change suggests a melody to you, maybe you will hear something. If no inspiration strikes then look at the individual notes of C major (C,E,G) and see if starting on one of those gives you a clue.

Arpeggios (the notes of a chord played seqentially instead of together) also feature pretty strongly in a lot of Surf music. For example: in Pipeline, the A minor descending melody in the middle is constructed almost entirely out of the notes of the underlying chords. Come up with a few chords that sound good together then play arpeggios around them.

Another common 'change' in pop music is, after a melodic section that revolves around the 'I' chord (say A) then you go into a second section that starts on the 'IV' chord.

I don't know what your knowledge of theory is, and I'm not trying to sound smart-arse: maybe it's better than mine for all I know ... so apologies if I'm telling you a bunch of stuff you already know.

It's true that to some extent moves like these are the 'obvious' thing to do rather than staggeringly original. But if you do have a bit of theory knowledge it's a great way of unsticking the creative process sometimes by giving you somewhere to look. Besides, lots of great songs are pretty obvious once you analyse them.

http://www.myspace.com/thepashuns

Youth and enthusiasm are no match for age and treachery.

Felix
My problem in writing songs is that i automaticlly write more riffs than melodies. Hope you know what i mean.

Thats why I find it easier to write the chord progression first. It gives you a reference to build a longer melody to. I admire others who can do the opposite.

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

For me, i've written more vocal songs than instrumentals and more often than not i'll take the melody from a vocal tune i've written and turn it into an instro. It gives the song another life.

The TakeOffs
"Kauai's Only All-Instrumental Surf Band"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-TakeOffs/312866840587

Kman1

Ron-Rhoades
For me, i've written more vocal songs than instrumentals and more often than not i'll take the melody from a vocal tune i've written and turn it into an instro. It gives the song another life.

Wasnt a Miserlou vocal before Dick got his way with it?

The history of Misirlou is much deeper than that. I suggest you google it. Many sources on the history of that song.

DannySnyder

Felix
My problem in writing songs is that i automaticlly write more riffs than melodies. Hope you know what i mean.

Thats why I find it easier to write the chord progression first. It gives you a reference to build a longer melody to. I admire others who can do the opposite.

Yes thats true! Especially the Space Cossacks did it that way! If you listen to the songs , you can always hear these great Chords in the Background. By the way, it's one of my favorit bands.

Yesterday i've listen to some ghastly ones stuff. I played a few songs of them on my guitar but i can't find any scale that belongs to their songs.

mostly these tones (Mysterion)

A / E / A# / B / C / D / G / (F)?

Band: http://www.myspace.com/theterrortones

JakeDobner

Kman1

Ron-Rhoades
For me, i've written more vocal songs than instrumentals and more often than not i'll take the melody from a vocal tune i've written and turn it into an instro. It gives the song another life.

Wasnt a Miserlou vocal before Dick got his way with it?

The history of Misirlou is much deeper than that. I suggest you google it. Many sources on the history of that song.

I hope Tuck doesn't see this

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

Felix
Yes thats true! Especially the Space Cossacks did it that way! If you listen to the songs , you can always hear these great Chords in the Background. By the way, it's one of my favorit bands.

Thanks, Felix, that's very nice of you to say!

DannySnyder
I would also question your assertion about the Space Cossacks, I suspect that quite a few started off as melodies. But we can let the man himself respond when he reads this thread.

Danny - as usual - is right. The best way to describe the Cossacks writing process would be "any way you can". Here's a song-by-song:

Red Sunrise - Catherine had the lead line, and then we figured out the chords underneath. I worked up the arrangement and the bridge.

Solaris Stomp - I came up with pretty much all of the lead lines for the intro riff and the verse while sitting watching TV one night - I still remember it well. The chords followed. I think with the bridge I came up with the chord progression first, and then the double-stops.

Neutron Sabre - the lead line came first again, chords second.

Black Sand - Mark had the whole backing, including the chord progression and the opening riff. He gave me a demo and I worked out a lead over it.

The Spy Satellite - Catherine had the lead line first again, though in 4/4 - I converted it into 6/8 (or whatever it is) cause it reminded me of a spy thing, and then we worked out the arrangement bit by bit while practicing it.

Planet of the Apes - the riffs and melodies all came first

Gunmetal Express - Catherine had the bass line from her punk days, and I came up with a lead line over it, and then we figured out the chords underneath (which was a bit tough, since there's a lot of funky stuff going on there!).

Transatlantic Orbit - I had most of the chord progressions from my previous non-surf band. I simplified them a bit and then worked out the leads over them.

Moroccan Adventures - lead first

The Space Victory Theme - hmmm, I don't remember. I think it was the lead first

Navajo Star - lead first

on the Tsar Wars album:

Exolumina - lead first. Art Bouressau, the head of MuSick gave me a tape of him humming this melody, with nothing else, and I came up with the arrangement and the bridge part.

Apes of Wrath - lead first

Escape from Gulag 17 - lead first. We were doing an EP with the Finnish band the Hypnomen, and Pekka, their lead guitarist, suggested the title From the Shadows of the Evil Empire. So, I tried for days to come up with something Russian-sounding, until one day I was thinking about the song again, and just humming different melodies, really forcing myself and focusing very hard, and I finally got the verse melody. Once I had that the rest kinda fell into place.

Sea of Tranquility - another one where Art hummed the melody into a tape recorder and again I converted it from 4/4 into 6/8 (I think), and came up with the arrangement, the bridge and the intro/outro.

The Defector - Catherine had most of the verse lead line, and I added the diminished run at the end of it. She had the chords for the B-part, and I came up with a melody for it and the intro riff.

Jewel of Duende - Not too sure about this one, what came first. It could have gone either way - though I think I had the chords first. And I'm pretty sure with the bridge the chord progession came first.

Departure - Catherine had some bass lines and implicitly most of the chord progressions, and I came up with most of the lead lines, except for one part where I transposed her bass line to lead guitar.

Tsar Wars - The chord progressions first - even for the bridge, Mark showed me this chord progression that he thought sounded 'Cossack-y', and asked if I could turn it into a song. It was initially completely independent of the song Tsar Wars, which we were working on at the time, but which didn't have a bridge yet. It struck me that might work really well as a bridge there, I asked him if he was OK with it, he said yes, and then I worked out the lead over it. I still really really love that whole part. It came together great - and through complete accident rather than design! I love combining different riffs and melodies that were not written together - when they work. If they work, they can really take the song to another place, because you were not limited in thinking "this song must sound like this". All of a sudden you have a different part in the song which makes it sound like something quite different.

Fiesta Del Cossacapulco - lead first, all the way

Tradewinds - Catherine again had lead lines for a few parts, and I just kinda stitched it together, including adding the simple intro and a few things in the bridge.

The hard part with coming up with lead lines first is sometimes figuring out the chords underneath. That can be pretty tricky. More recently I've been writing more by coming up with the chord progression first and then doing the lead line over it. Most if not all of my songs on Carpe Noctem were done that way. In fact, I now prefer to do a chord progression first and then come up with melodies on top by singing them first rather than playing them on a guitar, though I'll still come up with them on guitar, too, especially if I'm using some funkier scale that I have a hard time keeping in my head. But having said that, I might have to change it up the next time around! Just to keep it fresh and got get stuck in a formula.

Anyway, sorry to go on so long. So many people say this and it's true: there are no rules. Write in whatever way inspiration leads you. If you come up with a cool hook or a riff or a melody, start with that. If you come up with a cool chord progression start from there. Figure out what's the best way for YOU to do it IN THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT.

Good luck!

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Ruhar
Great post Ivan! That's good stuff. I love hearing about people's "process" stories.

Thanks, Ryan, I'm glad you found it interesting.

I have a follow up question though... For The Madeira, do you and Patrick send material back and forth to each other or do you just bring in a bunch of material when you guys get together and hash through it all?

Our practice time is so scarce since Patrick is in California, I'm in Michigan and Dane and Todd are in Indy, that we really have to get a lot of work done by ourselves before practicing together, if we're going to have a productive practice session. It's no good if somebody is just learning a part or playing it for the first time while the rest of us are twiddling our thumbs. Some of that is of course inevitable, but we try to keep it to a minimum. So, both Patrick and I make demos that we send to each other and the other guys and we try to have all the parts learned before the practice. Then at the practice we hash it out, see what works and what doesn't, allow the songs to develop a bit more spontaneously as we react to each other's playing. Listening carefully and sympathetically as well as critically is extremely important during this phase.

In general both mine and Patrick's songs are pretty complete when we make the demos so there's not as much songwriting collaboration as there was with the Cossacks. Patrick is a very talented songwriter, and I've been at it now for quite a few years so we both know what we're doing, more or less. But there is still a song here or there where we change things around at the practices. "Wreak Havoc" comes to mind - that started as Patrick's demo, but I had a few other parts that I didn't know what to do with, until I heard his demo and thought that if we combine them we'd have something greater than the sum of the parts. We replaced one of his original parts with one of mine (which also necessitated changing the key of the song), and added another of my parts, and voila! That was all done during a practice session. But most of the time in practice it's just a matter of learning to play all the parts together, after learning them individually from the demos at home.

By the way, I still think Jewel of Duende is one of the finest instros ever written!!

Thank you, Ryan. That one was written for a girl - the only time I ever did that. (It was before I met and started dating my wife.) I had some barebones idea before that, maybe a few chords. One evening I got into a bad fight with my girlfriend, felt really bad about it after she left, and started thinking about her, and just felt inspired to work on this barebones idea and turn it into a song for her - I know, I know, how horribly cheesy and cliche... But yet, it worked! I stayed up very late into the night, in the dark, trying to get all the parts right. That may be the case where the chords and the lead were really developed together, and one led to the other as I was making my way through the song. I'm pretty proud of that one, I must say, especially the opening and closing line which is pretty different - that was just a thunderbolt of inspiration as I was lying in the dark messing around with that song.

It's funny how these things can come to you completely out of the blue. I remember sitting down in the summer of '07, determined to finish writing the song Sahar. I've been working on that one for a while, for months, and was still stuck with a few different parts. Well, since the track features some exotic scales, I was just trying to figure out different harmonies within these scales and as I was going through them all of a sudden this part started emerging. Now, I expected the song to be a 'rager' all the way through, and had no plans to break it down and have a quiet piece. But as I was playing around, and was fingerpicking this part that just came out of me messing about with harmonies within the Hungarian Minor (or Byzantine? I forget now) scale, I got the idea to stick that in the middle and have the whole song kinda grind to a halt and then build it back up. That was not something intentional, in a sense of imagining it beforehand and then trying to write a part that I was hearing in my head. It was just an accident of improvising where I got lucky (I think).

I think it's really important to try different things during the songwriting phase, just mess around with it - but have your antennae up and running to the full extent to recognize what could be a cool new unexpected part for the song. Be SENSITIVE to what you're hearing! This is where recording yourself can be very helpful. I've had it happen quite a few times where I'd just be improvising, and pushing myself a bit, playing things that I'd never played before, and wouldn't really hear anything terribly interesting while doing it. But then I'd listen back to the tape (sometimes right away, sometimes days or weeks later) and certain parts would jump out and shout "I can be a song - work on me!" That's how "Moroccan Adventures" by the Space Cossacks and "Desert Drums" by the Madeira started, two songs I can think of right off the top of my head. Though sometimes it's a bit tricky relearning those parts!!

Anyway, the most important thing you can do to write is just give yourself time alone, with nobody bothering you or interrupting you, where you can go completely inside your head and try to tune into some creative frequency. I find that to be the most difficult thing to do, since I'm very busy most of the time, and time alone, where I can make some ghastly noise on my guitar (songwriting is often a matter of trial AND error!) without bothering my wife or my neighbors, is also hard to come by. It's a matter of sheer willpower that whenever you do get a bit of time, half an hour or a full hour here or there, you tell yourself, OK, I'm going to not just play, but play creatively, and see what comes out. I will forget about the world outside of me, and just focus on the music. I find this to be the most difficult part. If you can steal a bit of alone time and get your mind into this space, you're halfway there.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Great stuff, Ivan! Thanks for taking the time to post. That's the kind of info I'm always curious to hear from accomplished players/writers, but it's usually not so forthcoming.

Don