RaistMagus
Joined: Mar 30, 2011
Posts: 388
Copenhagen
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Posted on Aug 20 2014 02:42 AM
I recently got a new (b-stock, previously bought but returned) VOX AC30 Handwired combo with the Celestion Blue speakers. (http://www.thomann.de/gr/vox_ac30hw2x.htm)
The amp had a major tube rattling issue (probably the reason why it was returned). I found out it was one of the power tubes which I swapped with a random good one I had sitting there. Now it plays all right.
It does have a nice tone but I find it a bit bland. My problem is that it doesn't sound Voxy - it doesn't have that jangly, spongy, chimey tone for which Voxes are known for. I play with my strat but I can't get close to these iconic strat->Vox AC30 tones.
Could it be the tubes? Could it be the speakers needing time to break in?
— https://zakandthekrakens.bandcamp.com/
https://www.dirtyfuse.com
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Aug 20 2014 04:08 AM
I've heard that those VOXes are a pain to dial in correctly. Not a no brainer like Fender amps. Anyway, you switched out the power tube (EL84)? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to re-bias the tubes? And shouldn't they match? IIRC swapping out 1 of the 4 tubes is no good, except if you have another one that matches the quartet?!
— The Hicadoolas
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ElBirkerio
Joined: Dec 17, 2012
Posts: 519
Vienna
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Posted on Aug 20 2014 04:20 AM
hi!
newer voxes come with a rather modern tube set - rather harsh EL 84 and 3 12AX7 and a semioconductor rectifier. BTW - no re-biasing necessary. that is a bluesy, crunchy setup, and not necessarily a classical AC 30 sound ...
what i did in mine was the following - i replaced all tubes with the following from TAD:
EL84-STR TAD PREMIUM Matched
7025 WA TAD HIGHGRADE Premium Selected
7025 S Premium Selected -Mullard style- TAD-Tubes
12AX7A/ECC83 TAD Premium Selected (~ 7025, 12AX7WA, E83CC)
sounds more clean, classical. still not necessarily a shadows sound, but as my main gear is a Firebird with a Gretsch-filtertron in bridge and a M§ mosrite-type singlecoil in neck position, I would not expect that anyhow ...
yours
wolfi
— http://www.surfgrammeln-san.org
https://www.facebook.com/BaluUndSurfgrammeln
http://greencookierecords.bandcamp.com/album/coming-out-soon-los-chicharrones-del-surf-10
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Aug 20 2014 06:46 AM
Interested to see how this journey goes. EL84-based amps seem tougher to dial in.
I'd like to see Ivan weigh in on this as he has this tone nailed cold.
My own Vox-y sounding modified BJr has needed some attention with relation to both specific power tubes and insuring that I have a quality tube in V1, seems especially so in circuits where both sides of the tube are getting used. Little changes from each, but cumulatively yield a smoother amp. Not cheapest in terms of keeping spares, but I would agree about having matched power tubes.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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IvanP
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10320
southern Michigan
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Posted on Aug 20 2014 10:38 AM
Kostas, I only have a moment right now, but very quickly: Hank used a AC-15 for The Stranger, and it was the really early version of the AC-15, with an EF86 input tube. No modern AC-30 will get you that sound! In addition, the early AC-30s that the Shadows used (the so-called AC-30/4 model) also used the EF86 tube in the preamp. The EF86 tube has the magical tone for the AC-15/30s, but it is very unreliable, which is why Vox dumped it by '62 and switched to the 12ax7s - but then the amp sounded much duller than before, so they had to add the Top Boost channel - that was simply an attempt to regain some of the mojo of the EF86 tube.
I personally have no experience with the Handwired series, except that I read many good things about it. You should be able to dial in a tone that is more or less 'right'. Try the top boost channel with Cut at 0, Treble around 5-6 and Bass around 4. Volume around 4-5. Don't use a reverb unit with it initially. You should be able to get a good '63-'64 Shadows tone with that set up. For Giant, crank it a bit more, around 5-6, and make sure you use the neck pickup. (It IS possible the speakers may have to be broken in a bit, so just keep playing it.)
BTW, you will also NOT get the sound of Nowhere Man, as according to Paul they famously fed the signal through multiple EQs with treble on maximum to get that sound. Almost certainly they also used an AC-50 on that recording, not AC-30.
Hopefully that helps a bit! Just spend some time twiddling the knobs and listening carefully - getting to know your amp! I'm sure you'll be able to dial it in much better soon. Good luck!
— Ivan
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Last edited: Aug 20, 2014 10:39:43
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CrazyAces
Joined: Jul 31, 2012
Posts: 4052
Nashville, TN.
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Posted on Aug 20 2014 10:46 AM
FWIW, Nowhere Man - Guitar sound is largely the sum of the compressor/s used.
Tons of compression on the two guitar tracks that comprise that solo.
Cheers,
Jeff
— http://www.facebook.com/CrazyAcesMusic
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JObeast
Joined: Jul 24, 2012
Posts: 2762
Finknabad, Squinkistan
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Posted on Aug 20 2014 11:32 AM
I recall the VOX ads from the 80s featuring PAUL Weller of the Jam. In the text of the ad, for which I give VOX credit, Weller says the AC30 doesn't have 'that sound' right away when it's new, but need to be 'burned in' a bit to begin responding with those classic sounds. May be the case here.
If you want to get the 'Nowhere Man' sound, get a Janglebox compressor. That thing nails it right out of the box with minimal fiddling. Odd how no one mentions it much. Not a subtle effect when dialed in that way, but THE ONE device that will yield that Byrds-Beatles studio sound for very little money.
— Squink Out!
Last edited: Aug 20, 2014 11:55:02
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RaistMagus
Joined: Mar 30, 2011
Posts: 388
Copenhagen
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 09:01 AM
Thanks everyone for your input. Ivan, the stuff about the EF86 tube was very enlightening. And the nowhere man tone is stuck in my mind all day... It's not so easy after all to get these sounds... : )
Considering the amp is cathode biased and that the original tubes are Ruby tubes (not the worst around), do you guys think that a tube swap with JJs would make a world of a difference?
— https://zakandthekrakens.bandcamp.com/
https://www.dirtyfuse.com
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CrazyAces
Joined: Jul 31, 2012
Posts: 4052
Nashville, TN.
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 09:09 AM
EF86's had a lot of gain. If you can find a 12AX7 with a lot of gain you might get closer.
It can be quite worthwhile to experiment with different pre-amp tubes especially in the first position, known as V1 and in the phase inverter slot.
— http://www.facebook.com/CrazyAcesMusic
http://www.youtube.com/user/crazyacesrock
http://www.reverbnation.com/crazyacesmusic
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derekirving
Joined: Nov 03, 2011
Posts: 658
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 10:23 AM
I had an amp (65amps London) that had an EF86 preamp tube in one channel. The EF86 is a finicky tube and the best ones are the older NOS ones. There's a certain richness/chimney midrange tone with a great EF86 (eg. Bugle Boy) which is unlike a 12AX7. I think for a Vox to get that tone, the key is the EF86 tube and accurate Celestion Alnico Blue speakers.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 11:09 AM
IvanP wrote:
BTW, you will also NOT get the sound of Nowhere Man, as according to Paul they famously fed the signal through multiple EQs with treble on maximum to get that sound. Almost certainly they also used an AC-50 on that recording, not AC-30.
I believe they had a lot of Fenders in the studio for Rubber Soul as well, they were using Vox still, but Fenders were there.
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 11:27 AM
Now let me see if I can post this without the font becoming 32 pitch...
Pre-amp tubes are cheaper to play with for sure. I'd give it some time, learn the amp, and then possibly contact someone at Doug's Tubes or KCANOS tubes and simply ASK them some recommendations. They do that stuff alot and usually seem to be aware of what lots of tubes currently available are this gain or that, clarity present or gone, etc.
Digression - Some pretty astute ears on this site.
RE "Nowhere Man"
Besides gracing the track with his most melodic bass part to date, McCartney was instrumental in wringing an ultra-trebly sound out of Harrison's and Lennon's newly acquired Sonic Blue Fender Stratocasters, especially for Harrison's joyous, verse-based guitar solo.
"We wanted very trebly guitars, which [Stratocasters] are. They're among the most trebly guitars I've ever heard on record," McCartney said. "The engineer said, 'All right' … and we said 'That's not enough,' and he said … 'I've only got one pot and that's it!' We replied, 'Well, put that through another lot of faders and put the treble up on that."
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
Last edited: Aug 21, 2014 11:30:59
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Hammond101
Joined: Feb 22, 2013
Posts: 342
SoCal USA
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 12:12 PM
Check the value of the grid resistors on V1 and make sure Vox used the same value as on the original AC30. They change the value of these in the reissue amps and it affect the tone (less jangle) greatly. They may do the same on the HWs.
I have the correct values noted in a file in my PC at home. PM me if you want more info.
Swapping them resistors restores the jangle in an AC30.
— Keep it Drippy Brothers and Sisters!
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ludobag
Joined: Jun 05, 2010
Posts: 620
at south of
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 01:52 PM
something to care about is ,it is not only strat + vox in the shadows
there is an echo to give this sound ,i remember long times ago when i play some of there song i use a classic 50 normal channel , de armmond hollow (t400) ,a trem tr2 boss and headruch akai for the echo ,reverb also
the echo is the thing who push the treble and i have a sound no too bad ,yes it was not a strat for sure ,but sound the same ways ,the middle and hight where push also at the amp
i have try a vox ac 30 in a stores at this time and i was really disapointed,not the sound i have imagine before more over it is a radiator (it heat enormous) and to have some little cruch like i like need to push the volume really loud
i think with a vox need to play loud to have this type of sound , i haven't try an hand wired ,if i can i will try
how are you wired in ?
top boost chanel or the other?do you push it or at appartement volume ?
strat in or with some echo ?
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Aug 21 2014 03:03 PM
Hammond101 wrote:
Check the value of the grid resistors on V1 and make sure Vox used the same value as on the original AC30. They change the value of these in the reissue amps and it affect the tone (less jangle) greatly. They may do the same on the HWs.
I have the correct values noted in a file in my PC at home. PM me if you want more info.
Swapping them resistors restores the jangle in an AC30.
Neat! (tube-junkie spectator perspective)
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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TVTheWiredTurtle
Joined: Dec 03, 2009
Posts: 846
Sandy Eggo
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Posted on Aug 22 2014 01:34 AM
RaistMagus wrote:
I recently got a new (b-stock, previously bought but returned) VOX AC30 Handwired combo with the Celestion Blue speakers. (http://www.thomann.de/gr/vox_ac30hw2x.htm)
The amp had a major tube rattling issue (probably the reason why it was returned). I found out it was one of the power tubes which I swapped with a random good one I had sitting there. Now it plays all right.
It does have a nice tone but I find it a bit bland. My problem is that it doesn't sound Voxy - it doesn't have that jangly, spongy, chimey tone for which Voxes are known for. I play with my strat but I can't get close to these iconic strat->Vox AC30 tones.
Could it be the tubes? Could it be the speakers needing time to break in?
alnico blues take a solid year to break in with regular use
— http://www.thenocturnebrain.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nocturne-Brain-Preamp-Zombies/240721872969
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