What type of cable should I use with the Reverb Unit?

JakeDobner

Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
5 News Pins

Posted on Apr 13 2014 06:28 PM

Oh no! Corky!

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Ariel

Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1555
Israel
Israel

Posted on Apr 13 2014 07:48 PM

He got better, so it has been said. Ate a bunch of Pepperoni.

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BJB

Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 413
United States

Posted on Apr 14 2014 01:23 AM

OK, so you guys are having some fun with cable jokes. But the Fender reverb unit really is sensitive to the type of cable used to connect it to an amplifier.

The Fender reverb FAQ should have information on this subject. In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about.

The more capacitance, the more highs are lost. So a shorter cable would be preferred to a long cable. It turns out curly cables have a higher capacitance than a straight cable, so those will cause even more losses. Of course, if you actually want less treble, go ahead and use a long cable or a curly one between your Fender reverb unit and amplifier.

—

If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

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Badger

Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
United States

Posted on Apr 14 2014 06:25 AM

BJB wrote:

The Fender reverb FAQ should have information on this subject. In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about.

There was brief mention in the wiki under the description of the Mixer circuit but I added some substance with your words in the troubleshooting section; good concise explanation.

—

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

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LeeVanCleef

Joined: Oct 05, 2011
Posts: 744
France
12 Map Pins

Posted on Apr 14 2014 02:55 PM

BJB wrote:

In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about.

...aka the 'Wonderful Warmth of a True Vintage Analog Circuit' that others rave about.

—

Old punks never die... They just become surf rockers.

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JObeast

Joined: Jul 24, 2012
Posts: 2762
Finknabad, Squinkistan
Turkmenistan

Posted on Apr 14 2014 10:03 PM

My Gibson RV3 (pictured below in its natural home atop my obeast Fender/Altec stack, obviates discussion about cable-out issues as it's hard-wired with its own 2-ft cable (a skinny wire similar to George L's) & fat plug.

BJB wrote:*

OK, so you guys are having some fun with cable jokes. But the Fender reverb unit really is sensitive to the type of cable used to connect it to an amplifier.

The Fender reverb FAQ should have information on this subject. In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about.

The more capacitance, the more highs are lost. So a shorter cable would be preferred to a long cable. It turns out curly cables have a higher capacitance than a straight cable, so those will cause even more losses. Of course, if you actually want less treble, go ahead and use a long cable or a curly one between your Fender reverb unit and amplifier.

—

Squink Out!

Last edited: Apr 14, 2014 22:06:20

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Badger

Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
United States

Posted on Apr 15 2014 07:59 PM

Damn I love that pretty blue sparkly thing; still wow'd how cool that came out. Cable? Huh....?

—

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

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SanchoPansen

Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
Germany

Posted on Apr 16 2014 02:14 AM

Go wireless to get that DD sound!

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The Hicadoolas

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artdecade

Joined: Aug 30, 2012
Posts: 399
Twangsville
United States

Posted on Apr 16 2014 11:22 AM

Thanks for the advice.. and the jokes.

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To Boldly go where no Tiki has gone before...

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Badger

Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
United States

Posted on Apr 16 2014 11:28 AM

artdecade wrote:

Thanks for the advice.. and the jokes.

It was a long winter...

—

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

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BJB

Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 413
United States

Posted on Apr 16 2014 07:37 PM

I looked at the Gibson GA3 RV schematic and while it is very different from the Fender 6G15 circuit, the Gibson looks like it would be sensitive to cable length. The dry signal path looks pretty good but the reverb signal path includes a 220K resistor that could interact with cable capacitance and cause a loss of highs. Unlike the Fender circuit, which can lose highs from the dry signal, the Gibson circuit looks like it would lose highs from the wet signal instead.

http://www.davidsonamp.com/sg/gschemGGA3rv.php

—

If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

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JObeast

Joined: Jul 24, 2012
Posts: 2762
Finknabad, Squinkistan
Turkmenistan

Posted on Apr 17 2014 08:07 PM

Wow, thanks BJB. I do think the reverb of the unit is rather dark, but it allows me to engage the 'bright' switch on my Twin, or use the Rangemaster clone to pump the top end going into the unit for more punch and a little nasality. I like all the colors I am getting. Maybe someday I may have the good fortune of coming into money to buy a G-spring or Texotic. Until then I must content myself with the Gibson.
Could a mod be wrought on the RV3 circuit to make it brighter?

—

Squink Out!

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BJB

Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 413
United States

Posted on Apr 18 2014 06:48 PM

The schematic shows R22, a 220K resistor, in series with the output of the reverb recovery amplifier. You could put a small capacitor in parallel with this resistor to pass more highs through to the amplifier. Marshall uses this trick in the bright channel of some of their amps. They used a 500pf cap in parallel with a 470K resistor, so scaling that would mean you would use a 1000pF cap in parallel with the 220K resistor.

But there is a risk that this extra capacitance could load down the dry signal and then you'd lose treble again. There was a time when I would run PSpice simulations before I modded anything but I don't have that kind of time any more. Anyway, it's just one cap and you can attach it with clip leads to see if it works or not.

If you want to see what it looks like when someone does have the time to run amplifier simulations, take a look at this guy:

http://www.tonegeek.com/musicgear/amps/marshall-jmp-50-lead-1987-model.php

—

If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

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Surfgitar

Joined: Mar 16, 2007
Posts: 1342
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
United States

Posted on Apr 19 2014 05:14 PM

FWIW - I use a ProCo LLCN-5. The ground is lifted at the instrument end. My signal chain is pretty quiet, but this helped make it even more quiet.

—

CUTBACK

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JakeDobner Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 12159 Seattle	Posted on Apr 13 2014 06:28 PM Oh no! Corky! Top
Ariel Joined: Aug 29, 2009 Posts: 1555 Israel	Posted on Apr 13 2014 07:48 PM He got better, so it has been said. Ate a bunch of Pepperoni. Top
BJB Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Posts: 413	Posted on Apr 14 2014 01:23 AM OK, so you guys are having some fun with cable jokes. But the Fender reverb unit really is sensitive to the type of cable used to connect it to an amplifier. The Fender reverb FAQ should have information on this subject. In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about. The more capacitance, the more highs are lost. So a shorter cable would be preferred to a long cable. It turns out curly cables have a higher capacitance than a straight cable, so those will cause even more losses. Of course, if you actually want less treble, go ahead and use a long cable or a curly one between your Fender reverb unit and amplifier. — If it ain't broke, fix it until it is. Top
Badger Joined: Nov 16, 2013 Posts: 4536 Wisconsin	Posted on Apr 14 2014 06:25 AM BJB wrote: The Fender reverb FAQ should have information on this subject. In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about. There was brief mention in the wiki under the description of the Mixer circuit but I added some substance with your words in the troubleshooting section; good concise explanation. — Wes SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices. Top
LeeVanCleef Joined: Oct 05, 2011 Posts: 744 France	Posted on Apr 14 2014 02:55 PM BJB wrote: In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about. ...aka the 'Wonderful Warmth of a True Vintage Analog Circuit' that others rave about. — Old punks never die... They just become surf rockers. Top
JObeast Joined: Jul 24, 2012 Posts: 2762 Finknabad, Squinkistan	Posted on Apr 14 2014 10:03 PM My Gibson RV3 (pictured below in its natural home atop my obeast Fender/Altec stack, obviates discussion about cable-out issues as it's hard-wired with its own 2-ft cable (a skinny wire similar to George L's) & fat plug. BJB wrote:* OK, so you guys are having some fun with cable jokes. But the Fender reverb unit really is sensitive to the type of cable used to connect it to an amplifier. The Fender reverb FAQ should have information on this subject. In short, the cable capacitance loads down the output of the reverb unit. The more you turn up the Mixer control, the more the cable loads down the output and causes highs to be lost. This is the 'tone suck' that some people complain about. The more capacitance, the more highs are lost. So a shorter cable would be preferred to a long cable. It turns out curly cables have a higher capacitance than a straight cable, so those will cause even more losses. Of course, if you actually want less treble, go ahead and use a long cable or a curly one between your Fender reverb unit and amplifier. — Squink Out! Last edited: Apr 14, 2014 22:06:20 Top
Badger Joined: Nov 16, 2013 Posts: 4536 Wisconsin	Posted on Apr 15 2014 07:59 PM Damn I love that pretty blue sparkly thing; still wow'd how cool that came out. Cable? Huh....? — Wes SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices. Top
SanchoPansen Joined: Jan 04, 2011 Posts: 1588 Berlin L-Berg	Posted on Apr 16 2014 02:14 AM Go wireless to get that DD sound! — The Hicadoolas Top
artdecade Joined: Aug 30, 2012 Posts: 399 Twangsville	Posted on Apr 16 2014 11:22 AM Thanks for the advice.. and the jokes. — To Boldly go where no Tiki has gone before... Top
Badger Joined: Nov 16, 2013 Posts: 4536 Wisconsin	Posted on Apr 16 2014 11:28 AM artdecade wrote: Thanks for the advice.. and the jokes. It was a long winter... — Wes SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices. Top
BJB Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Posts: 413	Posted on Apr 16 2014 07:37 PM I looked at the Gibson GA3 RV schematic and while it is very different from the Fender 6G15 circuit, the Gibson looks like it would be sensitive to cable length. The dry signal path looks pretty good but the reverb signal path includes a 220K resistor that could interact with cable capacitance and cause a loss of highs. Unlike the Fender circuit, which can lose highs from the dry signal, the Gibson circuit looks like it would lose highs from the wet signal instead. http://www.davidsonamp.com/sg/gschemGGA3rv.php — If it ain't broke, fix it until it is. Top
JObeast Joined: Jul 24, 2012 Posts: 2762 Finknabad, Squinkistan	Posted on Apr 17 2014 08:07 PM Wow, thanks BJB. I do think the reverb of the unit is rather dark, but it allows me to engage the 'bright' switch on my Twin, or use the Rangemaster clone to pump the top end going into the unit for more punch and a little nasality. I like all the colors I am getting. Maybe someday I may have the good fortune of coming into money to buy a G-spring or Texotic. Until then I must content myself with the Gibson. Could a mod be wrought on the RV3 circuit to make it brighter? — Squink Out! Top
BJB Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Posts: 413	Posted on Apr 18 2014 06:48 PM The schematic shows R22, a 220K resistor, in series with the output of the reverb recovery amplifier. You could put a small capacitor in parallel with this resistor to pass more highs through to the amplifier. Marshall uses this trick in the bright channel of some of their amps. They used a 500pf cap in parallel with a 470K resistor, so scaling that would mean you would use a 1000pF cap in parallel with the 220K resistor. But there is a risk that this extra capacitance could load down the dry signal and then you'd lose treble again. There was a time when I would run PSpice simulations before I modded anything but I don't have that kind of time any more. Anyway, it's just one cap and you can attach it with clip leads to see if it works or not. If you want to see what it looks like when someone does have the time to run amplifier simulations, take a look at this guy: http://www.tonegeek.com/musicgear/amps/marshall-jmp-50-lead-1987-model.php — If it ain't broke, fix it until it is. Top
Surfgitar Joined: Mar 16, 2007 Posts: 1342 Ft. Lauderdale, Florida	Posted on Apr 19 2014 05:14 PM FWIW - I use a ProCo LLCN-5. The ground is lifted at the instrument end. My signal chain is pretty quiet, but this helped make it even more quiet. — CUTBACK Top

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What type of cable should I use with the Reverb Unit?