Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Mar 05 2014 09:49 PM
Coach wrote:
Now the question is, what do I do next in my quest for the ultimate drip?
I don't know what that is; do you have an audio clip of something you consider "ultimate" ?
I'm still going to try a 5751 in place of the 12AX7 just because I'm curious. I need a spare anyway for the one in the amp, so a trip to Dave's is in order. They might have one lying around in the back I can try or I'll just order one next time I need to order some tubes.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Mar 06 2014 04:04 PM
Badger wrote:
I'm still going to try a 5751 in place of the 12AX7 just because I'm curious. I need a spare anyway for the one in the amp, so a trip to Dave's is in order. They might have one lying around in the back I can try or I'll just order one next time I need to order some tubes.
Sun actually out & not -20 so made the trip & my amp guy pulled out a drawer of good pulls. I tried a 5751 in lieu of the 12AX7. Functions no problem, but tonally it was almost like I'd put the Accutronics pan back in. Really chimey, and a bit too shrill (for me). I took it out and it's now the V1 spare for my Blues Jr.
I've written this up in the wiki and would really want a competent tech who has knowledge of the schematic to weigh in. If someone were going back & forth with different pans, it would seem to be easier to just swap a tube rather than swap out the pan; I'm just a sample of one, although I tried 2 different 5751's. I wonder - but do not know - if the buffer portion of that tube's function that results in so-called "tone suck" of the highs in the dry signal is less bad with a slightly lower gain 5751 than the full-value 12AX7. Don't know; comment invited.
I find the 5751 warmer using it as a regular pre-amp tube, but it seems to have the opposite effect when half of it is used as a buffer. 'Tis a puzzlement. Anyway, there's that.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
Last edited: Mar 06, 2014 16:05:17
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buckaroo
Joined: Mar 10, 2014
Posts: 5
Bakersfield, California
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Posted on Mar 10 2014 08:02 PM
Richard wrote:
I think that in general, only the reissues will have printed circuit boards, though whether that makes a great deal of difference remains a point of debate. The tubes seem to matter more than the board.
The tubes are so huge! A NOS 6K6GT and "just the right" NOS 12AT7 especially. I tell a bit less difference with the various 12AX7 specimens but they contribute sonically too. To my ear the new production tubes do not sound as good as the NOS generally. I recently retubed my late model reissue with an awesome 1957 black plate RCA 6K6GT, a 1960's Mullard 12AT7 and a Raytheon long black plate 12AX7. The unit has the Korean Accutronics tank. It sounds great. The newer tanks (spring units) sound different than the broken in USA accutronic tanks. But that is what we have on our planet. They still can sound great, especially after the springs loosen up a bit.
I own 3 Fender pre CBS (model 6G15) Reverbs and 2 Fender reissue '63 Reverbs. I have taken them apart and swapped a few parts and to my ear the new ones sound slightly different than the old ones. Mostly because of age. If you put NOS tubes and an old Hammond spring tank (or later USA Accutronics) in a reissue it gets pretty hard to tell the difference in sound between old a new Reverb units.
The main complaint that I have with the reissue is that the daughter board on the pots and jacks seems like it could be more likely to break than the older units hand wired pots and jacks style assembly. I don't hear any significant sonic difference from the PC board or the newer modern caps and resisters in the Fender Reverb models. When I have heard a difference it has been when a cap or resistor has drifted in value a bit.
I am new and this is my first post! It seems like a great community!
Last edited: Mar 10, 2014 20:13:06
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Noel
Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
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Posted on Mar 10 2014 08:19 PM
Welcome to sg101, Alvis! Very glad you're here. There are a huge number of Buck Owens fans on sg101, myself included. Welcome to the Surf Side!
— This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.
Last edited: Mar 10, 2014 20:19:42
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Mar 10 2014 08:51 PM
buckaroo wrote:
The tubes are so huge! A NOS 6K6GT and "just the right" NOS 12AT7 especially. (and remainder of complete post)
Welcome! And thanks for you all your focused insights on your first post. (Note to self: I've got get back over to the store to swap out a suspect 12AT7 for one (or more) of those Mullard's he has laying about.)
Great to have you here and those who've been plugging away on the wiki here regarding reverbs will certainly cull some of this into that. It's always good when someone has tweaked with many units/many tube types over the years on a particular piece of gear. It brings a certain depth & tone to the mix (pun intended).
Edited to add: I will agree with you about the daughter-board issue, including as seen in some amps. I'm not against PCB's, per se, it's just that the previous simple platform for mechanically attaching electrical things is now massively part of the circuit. Older hands & eyes are often reluctant to work on something where a wrong move messes up a trace and, as they say on Jeopardy, the scores can really change. In my view, if they're gonna do "snap-in" pots for example, well by golly make 'em truly snap-in. Legos for guitar players.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
Last edited: Mar 10, 2014 20:58:55
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buckaroo
Joined: Mar 10, 2014
Posts: 5
Bakersfield, California
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Posted on Mar 10 2014 09:42 PM
Thanks for the welcome wagon comments guys! I looked at the wiki you are making....took a bit to find it being new...looks awesome. Many will appreciate the (Accutronics based) part number you listed. Just as an additional note, Fender's current part number for the Korean Accutronics spring tank is "047604". That is the number on the reissue shematic and on the tank itself. That Fender number corresponds exactly to the part number 4AB3C1C (Accutronics based) listed in the wiki. That vertical tank (or "pan" as we used to call it in my heyday) has the jacks "upward" facing.
Also, the difference between the vertical and horizontal reverb tanks has to do with the the "ideal mounting plane" for the tank inside the cabinet. The ideal plane is one that allows the transducer magnet to be centered in the "air gap" between the magnet and the transducer. Tanks made for vertical mount are "the best positioned mechanically to maintain that air gap". Tanks made for horizontal mount have some mechanical compensation added to the magnets position. That is, the magnets in horizontal tanks have been "factory adjusted" to be centered in the air gap for the horizontal mounting plane. This "factory adjustment" is considered less desirable from an electro- mechanical perspective. Some would argue that horizontal tanks are not as "musical" as well.
So our Fender Reverbs with their vertically mounted tanks are made that way intentionally to achieve the best electro-mechanical stability and ?(possibly) best sound? from the tank. Although I would never, ever complain about the sound of classic black face reverb in a combo amp with a horizontal tank!
Last edited: Mar 12, 2014 14:18:48
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Mar 11 2014 06:40 AM
That's some very interesting info Alvis.
One of the premises (and potential short-falls) of a wiki that purports to be authoritative is that it's generally open to editing. (In extreme cases it allows factions to re-write history of the moment.)
So I would ask if this air gap difference you speak of is visible or something measured in very minute dimensions?
This stuff is absolutely worth putting in the wiki. Anyone here can edit it, but if you're just getting settled in I'll see if I can fold this in; especially as it relates directly to the basic way reverb functions electro-mechanically. The wiki is for reverb, not just outboard tanks although that predominates here. Good reverb in combos is hugely important too. The knowledge of it could help with a vintage purchase decision, armed with the answer to "hmmm, is this thing correct for the amp?"
But if you have some more nuggets to share you can edit the wiki as well; it's a pretty straightforward interface. I think Brian mentioned we just try to keep it professional and written to the goal of THE surf-focused reverb wiki on the sea (think 3rd-person).
We're glad to have you with us. Ha, now I've got to look again at the inside pic I took of the modern Accutronics pan & the MOD pan that replaced it.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Mar 11 2014 09:47 AM
Follow-up: I incorporated buckaroo's comments into the Theory section (at the end). I also added a placeholder at the bottom, if someone would like to take a stab at it, of using the Normal channel as a tone control for a 2-channel combo amp's reverb. (Never personally done it; patching, how does it sound & work in practice, etc.)
Link directly to the wiki in my sigline.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Mar 11 2014 03:16 PM
Check this out:
Click
Could someone with proper english skills write a summary?
— The Hicadoolas
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buckaroo
Joined: Mar 10, 2014
Posts: 5
Bakersfield, California
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Posted on Mar 13 2014 08:31 PM
Badger wrote:
So I would ask if this air gap difference you speak of is visible or something measured in very minute dimensions?
The air gap is quite visible! Easily seen with the naked eye. It is not microscopic at all. Just look at the transducer and the magnet is hanging down in between the layers....just like certain parts of the male anatomy
Last edited: Mar 13, 2014 21:09:38
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Mar 13 2014 09:09 PM
buckaroo wrote:
The air gap is quite visible! Easily seen with the naked eye. It is not microscopic at all. Just look at the transducer and the magnet is hanging down in between the layers....just like certain parts of the male anatomy
Don't know if it can be well seen from the pics I posted on page 2 but thanks very much for the explanation.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Apr 12 2014 11:59 AM
Badger wrote:
(Note to self: I've got get back over to the store to swap out a suspect 12AT7 for one (or more) of those Mullard's he has laying about.)
Not to revive thread but there was a lesson learned on the suspect tube mentioned. It was indeed bad & tech showed me how, in this particular case.
When tubes are made there is a little metallic disk at the top of the bottle hooked to one of the pins. As a last measure in finalizing the vacuum that connection is flashed with some 10's of 1000's of volts to insure a no-bull vacuum. This creates oxidization that would be visible - IF there weren't a vacuum. If a pin gets loose or the bottle otherwise loses its vacuum, a tell-tale little white circle will appear at the top of the bottle - the NOW VISIBLE oxidization from the previous frying of the metal disk. Tube is dead - seek out another.
On the road & miss my Strat but have sounds from Oz in the headphones.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Apr 17 2014 04:58 PM
FWIW I added a bit of explanation to the 'grounding' part of the wiki.
The original stuff in there reported the explanation of R23, but omitted an explanation of R22 and the safety diodes (CR5 and CR6). I also added a preamble to that part explaining why the RI uses ground elevation and the vintage unit didn't.
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
Last edited: Apr 17, 2014 17:02:33
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Apr 17 2014 07:28 PM
tubeswell wrote:
FWIW I added a bit of explanation to the 'grounding' part of the wiki.
Thanks very much; this is going to be quite the wiki. Always nice when real experience gets in there and adds something. In playing with some different tubes recently I'm discovering what Alvis mentioned awhile back regarding how much this or that tube directly affects the sound and the range & effect of this or that control.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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toddr513
Joined: Dec 30, 2013
Posts: 245
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Posted on Apr 18 2014 03:19 PM
JakeDobner wrote:
1961-1966 - Handwired, 6K6 powertube, Hammond reverb pan (61-64)Gibbs reverb pan(64-66), appeared in every cosmetic variation in that era.
1976-1978 - Handwired, 6V6 power tube, Accutronics reverb pan, silverface cosmetics. Super rare, I think somebody here owns one. I've never seen one is person. I think they are just the same as 61-66...
1994- Present Reissue - PCB, 6V6 powertube, Accutronics pan, Blonde/oxblood, brown/wheat, black/silver, tweed.
Those are the three iterations. Nothing more, nothing less.
These units are almost never unoriginal, so nothing to look out for on craigslist/ebay. If something is wrong, a tech can fix it ASAP. Caps can always be bad when buying online, crummy tubes, solder joint that needs some attention, scratchy pots.
Reverb units have amazing amounts of variation from one to another. I've never found one that sounded like the other. Not all vintage ones are great, not all reissues ones are bad. A good reissue is better than a bad vintage unit.
With that said, don't buy a reissue. Buy a used Gomez or a Texotica. AMAZING value for the price. Better quality control than the originals in my opinion. More consistent sound from unit to unit and a great sound it is. Vintage is expensive... but if you can find a deal.
I have the silverface one and yes it has 4 tubes
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Brian
Joined: Feb 25, 2006
Posts: 19195
Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Posted on Jun 15 2017 12:06 PM
Got some feedback from a non-member on the FAQ.
Quote from: http://wiki.surfguitar101.com/ReverbFaq
"Mixer Circuit
The Mixer circuit is a simple resistive mixer consisting of a 50K linear taper pot."
Mixer and Dwell pots are 250K lin
Tone pot is 50K lin
Kind regards,
Jan
If someone wants to verify that info and update the wiki, have at it!
— Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me
"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea
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irv78
Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Posts: 99
Austria
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Posted on Jun 15 2017 01:15 PM
Brian wrote:
Got some feedback from a non-member on the FAQ.
Quote from: http://wiki.surfguitar101.com/ReverbFaq
"Mixer Circuit
The Mixer circuit is a simple resistive mixer consisting of a 50K linear taper pot."
Mixer and Dwell pots are 250K lin
Tone pot is 50K lin
Kind regards,
Jan
If someone wants to verify that info and update the wiki, have at it!
Verified and updated!
— 
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Brian
Joined: Feb 25, 2006
Posts: 19195
Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Posted on Jun 15 2017 06:14 PM
 Irv!
— Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me
"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea
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SurfBeat
Joined: Dec 31, 2008
Posts: 284
Riverside, CA
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Posted on Nov 08 2017 05:44 PM
JakeDobner wrote:
1961-1966 - Handwired, 6K6 powertube, Hammond reverb pan (61-64)Gibbs reverb pan(64-66), appeared in every cosmetic variation in that era.
1976-1978 - Handwired, 6V6 power tube, Accutronics reverb pan, silverface cosmetics. Super rare, I think somebody here owns one. I've never seen one is person. I think they are just the same as 61-66...
1994- Present Reissue - PCB, 6V6 powertube, Accutronics pan, Blonde/oxblood, brown/wheat, black/silver, tweed.
With all due respect to Jake's opinion that he "thinks the 76-78 SF Reverb units are the same as the 61-66, nothing could be farther from the truth.
I had a 76, and thought the extra tube would be the holy grail of reverb units. Again, nothing could be farther from the truth.
After several techs went through it to produce a tone even close to a 61-66, it still sounded pale. I listened to a half dozen, communicated with at least a half dozen others who once owned them and all said they sounded like crap.
They were designed for a different type of player who did not want the drip, but an echo/reverb sounding effect.The dwell, mix and tone each had to be set to 9 to get a pop.
They pop up on ebay frequently for about a grand, sellers pointing out the vintage advantage. Buy one, and you will regret it. Just get an RI, about 98% comparable to a 61. Very few people will be able to discern any difference.
Last edited: Nov 08, 2017 17:51:24
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