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SurfGuitar101 Forums » The Shallow End »

Permalink Gibson Guitars Made with Illegal Wood?

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As a general rule I'd don't save the links to every article I read however you are certainly free to do your own research.

tonewoods wrote:

HBkahuna wrote:

All the wood in question had previously been cleared by U.S Customs for import.

Do you have a link to a source for your info?
Thanks!!

If the wood hadn't been cleared by U.S. Customs would that not have been smuggling? U.S. Customs, to my guess, probably can't tell one species of rosewood from another. They probably saw documentation and let it move on. If they checked every piece of wood... $$$. It would be easy to falsify paper work or 'accidentally' get the wrong wood somewhere in the shipment.

JakeDobner wrote:

If the wood hadn't been cleared by U.S. Customs would that not have been smuggling? U.S. Customs, to my guess, probably can't tell one species of rosewood from another. They probably saw documentation and let it move on. If they checked every piece of wood... $$$. It would be easy to falsify paper work or 'accidentally' get the wrong wood somewhere in the shipment.

Hypothetical:

If eleven separate international shipments to the USA were secretly tracked by the Feds, and all of the eleven shipments used techniques to falsify the exact nature of the shipment contents, then, they could have "cleared", but, may have been in violation of this:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloads/cites.pdf

Here's an interesting piece:

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2010/05/20/madagascar_logging_crisis/

carry on.

Very interesting!

JakeDobner wrote:

Noel wrote:

And do we really need to use fully armed SWAT teams to raid Gibson and Amish dairy farmers?

They know they won't get shot at. Plain and simple.

99999/100000 times they don't, but that one time... I'm sure it is standard policy that armed teams accompany. I'm sure every officer/agent is armed as well. With religious groups/organizations, I'm sure it is policy times two that armed teams accompany. It ensues the peace whereas without, something really horrible could happen, for both sides.

Jake, you're being much too reasoned. "SWAT" is such a cool word {though, not really accurate in this case}, "jack-booted SS Gestapo" is cool, too. Where I live, all the cops come in for a raid unarmed when something cool like guitars are involved.

cut me some slack.... just makin a funny.

SlacktoneDave wrote:

Hypothetical:

If eleven separate international shipments to the USA were secretly tracked by the Feds, and all of the eleven shipments used techniques to falsify the exact nature of the shipment contents, then, they could have "cleared", but, may have been in violation of this:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloads/cites.pdf

Here's an interesting piece:

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2010/05/20/madagascar_logging_crisis/

carry on.

WOW!!! Tremendously informative links, Dave. thank you!

Bob

SlacktoneDave wrote:

Here's an interesting piece:
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2010/05/20/madagascar_logging_crisis/

Isn't it the case that the rosewood and ebony the federal govt seized from Gibson in this recent raid was all from India, though? I didn't think it had anything to do with Madagascar.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
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I think there may be too issues, two raids... alleged contraband wood {Ebony, Mahogany?} from Madagascar, and secondly, questionable Rosewood fretboard blanks from India that may violate agreements made by the USA to self regulate the harvesting of raw, natural resources from developing countries without the local population being part of the wealth creation process. I'm no expert on this issue, but creating a market force {i.e. go to jail} to handicap the illicit trade of Ivory, rare, rainforest woods, tortoise shell, etc.is what our country has chosen as a value a long time ago.

Perhaps, the Feds watching shipments over time led to the discovery of the India Rosewood alleged violations.

PURE speculation on my part.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

~d

I got a copy of the Summer 2012 Wood & Steel (Taylor Guitars publication) that has a fascinating article about what Taylor are doing to not only be clear with the law, but in the name of sustainability.

They do publish Wood & Steel in a .pdf, but it isn't online yet. I'll try to remember to keep looking and posting again here when it's available. The entire writeup including side-bar blurbs is really interesting and deserves a full read by anyone interested in this thread.

As a preview of big themes in haste: Taylor are taking many fascinating actions including buying a mill in Cameroon, hiring a former legislative (or enforcement?) official to play a critical role in Cameroon (ensuring compliance on many fronts), to deliberately changing the industry value of what used to be considered sub-standard wood (natural color variation - no longer discarded waste, but marketed as limited/exclusive - worth the same or more.)

Taylor Guitars topic intro:
http://www.taylorguitars.com/about/sustainable-ebony

Fady

El Mirage @ ReverbNation

Last edited: Jul 21, 2012 06:27:22

Wood & Steel now available on Taylor's website for .pdf download. Again, fascinating read - highly recommended for anyone interested in the topic at large.

image

Download Wood & Steel (.pdf - English).

Also available in Español, Française, and Deutsch.

Fady

El Mirage @ ReverbNation

Hey look here, after all that, Gibson admits to using illegal wood after all.

NASHVILLE, Tenn. — NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Federal prosecutors say a deal has been reached to drop the criminal case against Gibson Guitar Corp. after the instrument maker acknowledged its exotic wood imports violated environmental laws.

Under the agreement announced Monday, Nashville-based Gibson agreed to pay a $300,000 penalty, forfeit claims to about $262,000 worth of wood seized by federal agents and contribute $50,000 to promote conservation of protected tree species.

The company didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

Gibson's decision to cooperate with federal laws banning the import of endangered wood products stands in contrast to a 2011 publicity campaign mounted after agents raided Gibson facilities in Memphis and Nashville.

Republicans and tea party members rallied behind CEO Henry Juszkiewicz (JUS'-kuh-wits) as he denounced the raids as overzealous federal regulation that threatened American jobs.

Here is my favorite part of the Justice Department press release:

"This case was investigated by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service with assistance from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement."

I guess the Department of Education and NASA took a pass.

DOJ Press Release

Sean

Gibson settles discord on timber:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19153588

Bob

Last edited: Aug 06, 2012 17:20:43

So they've admitted to not verifying the source, or is this seen as a tacit admission of "We knew we were buying illegally sourced wood and didn't care"?

Gibson admitted violating the Lacey Act, which requires firms to know that timber they use is legally obtained.

The FWS found evidence that an employee had told Gibson two years previously that its Madagascan imports might be illegal, but that the company had nevertheless ordered further stocks.

The article goes on to say it again; that Gibson failed to act on an employee's assertion that the wood "may" have been harvested illegally. What I haven't seen stated is the source of the wood. If they can prove Gibson's guilt, they must know, right?

The Mystery Men?
El Capitan and The Reluctant Sadists
SSS Agent #31

Last edited: Aug 06, 2012 21:06:19

Gibson's response to the government's press release:

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Gibson-Comments-on-Department-of-Justice-Settlemen.aspx

Bob

Here's an interesting Wall Street Journal op-ed on this issue. (Just to clarify, I'm not posting it because I agree with it. I really just don't know. But the piece brings up some interesting issues.)

The Wall Street Journal
OPINION
August 20, 2012

Gibson Is Off the Feds' Hook. Who's Next?
The guitar company settlement reveals a disturbing effort by federal prosecutors to silence their corporate targets.
By HARVEY SILVERGLATE

Gibson Guitar Corp. got lucky. Its looming federal prosecution for claimed violations of vague, protectionist export regulations involving imports from Madagascar and India ended abruptly after the absurdity and unfairness of the case spread virally. Apparently the Justice Department couldn't handle the heat of news reports on how armed federal agents twice in two years dramatically raided guitar factories full of unarmed luthiers.

On Aug. 6 prosecutors agreed not to prosecute Gibson provided the company adheres to some remedial measures meant to assure that it never again violates regulations—regulations that it likely didn't violate in the first place. The company also agreed to pay a modest (as these things go) $300,000 monetary penalty to the government, along with a $50,000 contribution to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation. (The Justice Department always looks for an opportunity to portray itself as benign and even philanthropic—with other people's money, of course.)

Did Gibson acquiesce in this settlement solely to end the expense, distraction, danger and agony of a federal criminal prosecution—the usual reasons for shouting "uncle" to Uncle Sam? We will never know. Why? Because federal prosecutors required, as part of the "criminal enforcement agreement," that Gibson not only "accept[s] and acknowledge[s] responsibility for the conduct" alleged, but also that the company's "public statements regarding this Agreement will not contradict the statement of facts" set forth in an appendix to the settlement agreement.

Put another way, Gibson is now forbidden to tell the world the whole truth about its conduct and its reasons for settling a case it previously claimed publicly, including in an opinion piece in this newspaper, involved no criminal conduct on its part. In exchange for agreeing to read the government's script, Gibson regained its ability to conduct business without a federal sword of Damocles dangling over its corporate head.

This naked effort by federal prosecutors to control both news and outcomes, not to mention their own reputations, does not surprise those familiar with the modern federal criminal justice system. The accounting firm KPMG was strong-armed into a similar agreement in 2005 when threatened with indictment. In exchange for not being prosecuted for its role assisting lawyers in devising aggressive tax shelters that many experts at the time deemed lawful, the firm agreed not only to cooperate with the government in going after former clients and partners involved in the shelters, but it also signed a stipulation that the firm, its employees and its lawyers would not "make any statement, in litigation or otherwise, contradicting the Statement of Facts" set forth in the settlement agreement.

Federal prosecutors, in other words, wrote the script that anyone connected with KPMG had to follow, even while under oath in court. If anyone other than a federal prosecutor suggested, much less imposed such a stipulation on a party, he would promptly be indicted on a charge of obstruction of justice.

This obsession with controlling the "truth" is not limited to federal prosecutors offering to settle a threat of indictment against a vulnerable corporation or individual. The FBI has a formal, binding policy that forbids its agents from conducting witness or target interviews with the aid of electronic recording—in contrast to the practice of recording custodial interviews, which is now in wide use by law enforcement officials on the state and local levels.

Instead, one federal agent does the questioning while the other takes notes. Those notes, once typed up in a "Form 302 report," become the official version of what the interviewee said. A witness deviating from that version risks up to five years imprisonment for making a false statement to a federal official, even if the statement was not made under oath. In this way, it is the FBI agent, not the witness, who controls the witness's official story.

Through these and myriad other techniques, federal investigators and prosecutors create an alternative reality that favors their own institutional interests, regardless of the truth or of justice. All citizens and companies have become subject to the Justice Department's essentially unfettered power.

Remedying this problem cannot be left to the victims of this governmental extortion, because their risks are too high if they fight; nor will their lawyers likely blow the whistle, since the bar makes a tidy living by playing the game. It is up to the rest of civil society to let the Justice Department emperor know that we see he is not wearing clothes.

Mr. Silverglate, a lawyer and writer, is the author of "Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent" (Encounter Books, updated edition 2011.)

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

I really hope this doesn't trigger more arguments and acrimony, but I thought this was an interesting postscript to the entire episode:

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201402040214/BUSINESS06/302040043&nclick_check=1

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

This makes me want to buy one. A big FU to the man! Lol

At least they've decided to create an internationally accepted passport to permit old musical instruments made from restricted woods to safely travel across borders.
http://www.fretboardjournal.com/blog/have-guitar-passport-will-travel

This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.

I did have to chuckle, however, when Gibson started making Government Series 2 guitars using woods they've got back from the U.S. government.

Fast Cars & Loud Guitars!

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